Update, 3/15/22: The US Senate has unanimously passed legislation that would make daylight saving time permanent starting in 2023. The bill now heads to the House of Representatives, and if it passes there, to President Biden to sign into law.
A move to permanent DST would have a profound effect on when religious Jews can pray in the morning, as described below. It would also mean that kids will be waiting for their bus in the dark during much of the school year.
Do you support such a change?
Rabbi Dovid Heber (who along with Rabbi Shmuel Lesches were very helpful figuring out zmanim and Shabbos questions on the DansDeals cruise to Antarctica) spoke yesterday about some of the DST zmanim issues that I wrote about below in 2019:
Update, 3/13/21: Don’t forget to spring forward tonight!
Senator Rubio and others senators are leading a bipartisan effort to make DST permanent across the country:
Soon we will have to comply with the senseless twice a year “time change”.
We need to pass my bill to make daylight savings permanent.
More daylight in the evenings results in fewer car accidents & robberies. And it allows kids to play outside longer.#LockTheClock
— Marco Rubio (@marcorubio) March 10, 2021
Originally posted on 3/12/19:
On 11/18/1883 the United States adopted 4 times zones. Until that point every city had their own local time zone based on when sun was overhead at noon, but that system became untenable as trains had to set schedules incorporating hundreds of local times zones.
On 3/19/1918 the United States copied Germany in moving to a daylight saving system by moving the clocks forward an hour in the summer and backward in the fall. It was not used in all places at all times and didn’t become the federal standard until 1967.
Currently, 48 states go through the rigmarole of changing the clocks twice a year. Arizona and Hawaii use standard time year-round.
As a parent, I despise changing the clocks. When we “fall backward” the kids wake up an hour earlier and when we “spring forward” the kids won’t fall asleep on time and have trouble waking up on time for the bus to school.
But should the system be fixed?
Dozens of states have proposals to change to year-round daylight saving time or year-round standard time.
- CA, FL, OR, and WA are trying to move to year-round daylight saving time. However the federal government currently only allows states to have year-round standard time, not year-round daylight saving time.
- KS, OK, and TX are trying to move to year-round standard time.
- CT, MA, ME, NH, and RI want to move from the Eastern time zone to the Atlantic time zone, which is 1 hour ahead. They also want to move to year-round standard time. That move would effectively give them year-round daylight saving time compared to what they have now.
Marco Rubio and Vern Buchanan introduced bills into the Senate and the House to move the entire country to year-round daylight saving time.
Among other issues, permanent daylight saving time would mean that my own kids would be waiting for the bus in the pitch black during the winter months, creating a potentially dangerous situation. The National PTA is opposed to daylight saving time during the winter months for that reason.
For example:
- In NYC, sunrise on January 5 would go from 7:20AM to 8:20AM.
- In Cleveland, sunrise on January 5 would go from 7:53AM to 8:53AM.
- In Detroit, sunrise on January 5 would go from 8:01AM to 9:01AM.
However, permanent daylight saving time would also mean that there is less crime, which typically takes place after nightfall.
Many of the original reasons, such as energy savings, no longer apply today. What is known is that heart attacks and other health issues are more common after we “spring forward,” so there is solid logic to eliminating time changes.
Time changes also have some unique factors for religious Jews.
Permanent daylight saving time would mean the earliest time to daven the morning prayers would be quite late, which would cause serious problems for those who want to daven with a minyan and then go to work.
- In NYC the earliest time for Talis and Tefilin on January 5 would go from 6:26AM to 7:26AM, with sunrise at 8:20AM.
- In Cleveland the earliest time for Talis and Tefilin on January 5 would go from 6:58AM to 7:58AM, with sunrise at 8:53AM.
- In Detroit the earliest time for Talis and Tefilin on January 5 would go from 7:06AM to 8:06AM, with sunrise at 9:01AM.
But permanent daylight saving time would also mean not having to rush home as early on Fridays in December to make it on time for Shabbos, though it would also mean longer winter fast days.
- In NYC the earliest time for sunset in December would go from 4:28PM to 5:28PM
- In Cleveland the earliest time for sunset in December would go from 4:56PM to 5:56PM
- In Detroit the earliest time for sunset in December would go from 5:00PM to 6:00PM
Permanent standard time robs people of long summer evenings, but on the other hand it would mean the end of the super late Friday night Shabbos dinner and long summer fast days.
- In NYC the latest time for sunset in June would go from 8:31PM to 7:31PM
- In Cleveland the latest time for sunset in June would go from 9:04PM to 8:04PM
- In Detroit the latest time for sunset in June would go from 9:13PM to 8:13PM
That’s a whole lot to unpack and it also shows that there actually may be an advantage for religious Jews to the craziness of twice yearly clock changes.
The Forward reports that Agudath Israel of Florida lobbied against Florida trying to adopt permanent daylight saving time. Florida wound up passing that bill, though they are still awaiting permission from the federal government to implement the change.
Besides, when will you change the batteries on your smoke alarm and check if you have any miles expiring if not for the time change 😉
There are certainly pros and cons for any of the options and we may well wind up with states that observe permanent standard time, states that observe permanent daylight saving time, and states that change the clocks twice a year.
Which side of the debate are you on? Would you spring forward and not fall back, fall back and not spring forward, or leave things the way they are?
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206 Comments On "[Update: Senate Passes Permanent DST Legislation] The Great Daylight Saving Debate Explained; How Would You Vote?"
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I would move the clockin the winter we and leave out summer we should have winter a longer Friday and summer a smaller Shabbos afternoon…
Ya’ lost me there.
Joe meant to say (I think) do dst in the winter so you don’t rush on Fridays and do est in the summer to have earlier nightfall for e.g. fasting
I totally agree!
Lol, there’s about a 0% chance of that happening.
Also that doesn’t solve the Shacharis and kids bus issues in the winter.
You are absolutely correct, but, living in Boston or Bangor ME and having to leave work at an ungodly early hour on Friday afternoons presents Orthodox Jews with an untenable situation. In Boston, the earliest Shabbos is 3:53, Bangor 3:36. How I wish it was always DST which would mean 4:53 and 4:36.
What you really want is for New England to move to Atlantic time, so the times would stay at 4:53 and 4:36 without having to be on DST all year.
i would vote to change the clock but not as bring in DST as early as we do now and bring back EST earlier as well
exactly- this won’t happen – but i was thinking the same thing. make something that sunrise is latest 630. it would satisfy everyone. the ppl who live all the way north east (most ppl leave Maine for most of the winter anyways.) there is also the idea of not working past mid-day on friday. if it means moving the clocks 2 hours and keeping it their – why not!
Bingo! Less complaints when the clock change was -> DST in April and -> ST in October – Why? Because in most areas, by the time April came, everyone was already waking up an hour earlier naturally because the Sun was rising before 6:00AM. So the spring clock change wasn’t as hard to adjust to.
“Of course that would have other consequences. Someone living in Greenwich, CT and working in NYC would leave work at 5pm, drive for an hour, and get home at 8pm due to the 2 hour time difference in the winter.”
They would get home at 7 Greenwich, CT time. CT would be just 1 hr ahead in winter and same time as NY in summer (assuming NY stays the same)
Agreed.
Dan, it would only be a two hour difference if CT switched to Atlantic Time AND used DST all year. What they are proposing to do is to switch to AST which, as you said, would effectively give them EDT all year so it would never be more than an hour difference from NY.
I wondered the same, because Dan doesn’t mistake too often
It would make things almost confusing as the time zone donut in NV/AZ – https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/02/us/daylight-saving-time-doughnut.html
Whatever the change, I hope it’s national. I spend parts of my week in 3 different states, and if they’re on two or three different times, I’d go nuts
Dan,
What are you using for the earliest zman Tefillah? Personally, I’m for year round DST. You can always make early Shabbos, but can’t just decide to make late shabbos. Shabbos starting after 5 in vthe winter instead of shortly after 4 would be a fame changer.
I used Misheyakir on http://www.chabad.org/times for that z’man.
And from my experience in Moscow, Chabad is pretty anti early Shabbos…
True.
Actually NOT true. The position is anti early MAARIV.
Nobody is ch”v anti early Shabbos.
@Anon I don’t know about chabad, but I know of a world renowned rav who is against people making early shabbos. I know many rabbonim who say its better to make early shabbos. I am just correcting your statement of “Nobody is ch”v anti early Shabbos.”
The vilna gaon was very against
I would prefer standard time, but daylight savings still beats changing the clocks twice a year.
When I was a kid I think they stayed on DST one year and I remember waiting for the bus to Kindergarten in pitch black. It was in the early 70s.
That was winter of 73-74, it was due to the Arab oil embargo. I was also in kindergarten then, waiting for the bus in the pitch black! I’m trying to think if I remember you….
It was way to dark, i do not think you guys would have seen each other 🙂
a yid always sees another yid, at any age
How could you, it was before משיכיר
Standard Time Year Round. Let’s keep things the way G-d intended!!!
G-d did not invent time zones, standard time, or daylight saving time. The sun being overhead at noon is only true for a limited swath of each time zone, for the rest of the time zone it can be far off as someone in Boston, Cleveland, or Detroit can attest to.
Going back to how it was before 1883 would be untenable in a modern connected world.
A better way to say it is – WHEN THE SUN is directly overhead, it is “noon”, or the middle of the day. So “noon” in Cleveland is different than “noon” elsewhere. That’s how God created the universe.
Dan, love the commentary posts!
“Besides, when will you change the batteries on your smoke alarm” Lol!
NYC and CLE are understandable, but what’s up with Detroit? How about LA?
Thanks 🙂
Detroit is an example of a major Jewish community near the western edge of a wide time zone.
LA is closer to the middle and wouldn’t be as extreme.
There is a bill introduced in Michigan for year round standard time! I’m not holding out hope but it would be great!
#fallback All of the yomtovim take place in daylight savings, making Purim, the Seder etc all super late
Good point on the Seder! Keep in mind though Chatzos would be an hour earlier. #afikomen
For those who stay up Seder night and shavuos night it makes no difference and for Purim daylight savings is good could you imagine having to finish giving out all that mishloach manos etc an hour earlier so as to make the seudah before shkia.
I think we should abolish time zones. It’s so hard figuring out what time it is by my cousins in Ramat Beit Shemesh. I agree. Better if we were all on the same time.
Very Wise!!!!
LOL
UTC for all!
On MY time zone of course!
For starters if we are going to keep switching back and forth – we need to go back to the regular schedule to match up with the world.
These extra 3-4 weeks that we have on both sides (making DST longer) is a real pain when coordinating things internationally….flights, conference calls, etc…
DST all the time effectively eliminates any ability to go out on Motzei Shabbat though — business opening in the winter after Shabbat are not going to be able to do that
The rest of the world is having this same debate right now. You’re never going to be able to coordinate with everyone.
Why would DST do that? If NYC winter sunset moves from 4:28PM to 5:28PM and Shabbos ends 40-72 minutes after that, why does that mean people won’t go out to eat?
People might not eat out after Shabbos in the summer due to the combination of DST and a longer day, but I don’t see why winter would change much due to DST. If anything it will just remove some Shabbos lunch FOMOM (Fear of Missing out on Milchigs!) as it gives you an extra hour to become parve before you enjoy your pizza 🙂
Aka fleishaphobia
It is never going to be perfect, but the 2005 Energy Bill that W signed added 6 weeks to DST (3 on each end). Those 3 weeks are the problematic weeks as most of the other developed world did not make that change and thus the disconnect.
And yes in your 428/528 example, it probably isn’t an issue, but that is the shortest time. Where sunset is 6:30 and you can be out by 730/8, that’s one thing…when that changes to 830/9 it becomes a big diff
“and get home at 8pm after the kids are asleep ”
Wow. Your family is a lot more disciplined than mine LOL
They range from 1-7 in age. We’ll keep bedtime before 8pm for as long as we can 🙂
And we all said hallelujah
Would it help at all with Indiana’s confusing time zones ?
I once drove from Nashville Tennessee, to Evansville, Indiana, to Jeffersonville, Indiana, not realizing that Jeffersonville is an hour ahead, not only missing my last meeting, also almost missing my flight at SDF Airport too!
It appears that you are using Misheyakir as your earliest time to Daven. That is already BiDieved. As it is, the Zmanim are difficult for Davening in the winter. If we switched to Daylight Savings all year I would probably never be able to Daven with a Minyan in the winter.
All Rabonim that I know permit davening Misheyakir if the other option is not davening with a minyan, but YLORMV. That’s the reason I used that time in the post as I was using the example of someone going to minyan before work, which would be difficult during some months if DST becomes permanent.
However I also included sunrise times (Netz) in this post, which is the ideal time for Shacharis.
There is much debate as to when Misheyakir is.
Rabbi Moshe feinstein zt”l held quite a late time
I’m not paskening halacha here.
Guys I work at Rikers!!! The Time Zone change wont matter because its always dark in their. Also, their busses are super confusing too so extra dark wont make that better!
Dan, you lost me at “On 11/18/1883…”!
Well if we had permanent daylight savings time children would be going to school before its fully light more risk for חס ושלום pedestrians getting hit
Honestly no need for schools to start so early. Start an hour later and that solves everything
Do you feel good busting out the word rigmarole?
Now take this a step further and get into passing the international dateline over Sefira. And then take it even further with the question of what happens if you travel the polar route.
Dan, were you always into time zones and zmanim, or is this a new hobby since Antarctica after studying the topic in depth? 😉
Always.
9:00 earliest Shachris in Detroit?! I’m moving there tomorrow.
What about just moving the clock half an hour and stay in the middle all year!!
It’s time to just become למעלה מן הזמן
I vote to turn the clocks back and forward every year, but by 12 hours each time.
It will have HUGE advantages. It’ll be like a full 360 degree change from before.
Actually it would be a 180. A 360 is a complete circle and puts you right back where you started
On a 12hr clock that is 360 degrees
The bus thing will be a problem the other way around when coming home it’ll be pitch dark during the summer
Meaning if we remove dst
If you come home at 8:00 during the summer then your correct…
Eh, we should just all move to Kosher Antarctica Standard Time. 24h fasts, Maariv>Havdala>Shachris>Melava Malka every week, and so on.
Seems legit
The issue with a permanent daylight savings time is that during the Emergency Daylight Saving Time Energy Conservation Act of 1973 a number of kids got hit by cars while waiting for school buses in the dark. I think the current situation is fine for most states. I do think southern states could just go one way or the other.
I do wonder how come no one ever brings up moving the clock forward/back half an hour once and just be done with it?
First of all, thanks for explaining it in simple terms (except for that rigor mortis thingy).
I would go for #springforward any day as long as it comes packaged with spring.
I am totally anti-waking-up-in-the-middle-of-the-night!
What would the zmanim be like in a place that has no sunset half the year?
Let’s do DST and start school a bit later
+1. I’ve been saying this for years. (And work as well, while your at it. I know this may not go over well for some business owners)
I’m not sure how anyone can answer this question without being well versed in statistics and economics
Same way the 737-MAX8 thread is full of licensed pilots and aerospace engineers
Cuz how people feel about things is most important!
The day should be split into 26 hours
In Canada the kids come home from school when it is dark during the winter so that part doesn’t bother me as much.
The later shachris times would be problematic for many who have to be at work early.
I would choose standard time when dan posts awesome deal about to expire to give ourselves that extra hour if anybody up that time!
I would vote that we move the clock forward Monday afternoon at 4 o’clock instead of Saturday midnight. This way we don’t lose sleep on the weekend but get ti finish work early.
That’s a great idea. I love it.
Definitely voting for year-long standard time. It’s a lot easier to for the boss to understand that you need to get out early once a week for Shabbos than to come in late every day so you can daven with a minyan. And if you can pull off a 4:00 Shabbos in the winter currently, why can’t you get it together for a 6:00 summer Shabbos?
I don’t mind the switching back and forth. I mind that they’ve moved the start and end dates so close together. Keep standard time for longer.
+1
Just use UTC Time/Zulu Time
I would vote for only one universal time zone in the whole world. People would have to get used that sunrise is at 10pm, or Sunset at 11am in some places. Or school starts 1am. But otherwise everything would be so more simple: If you have flight, meeting or any event you don’t have to take in mind time difference and so on.
R.i.p. circadian rhythm….
@Dan you didn’t take into account the latest Zman Krias Shma in the summer for those who hold of Chasidic Standard Time.
Standard time in summer would be very hard for סוף זמן קריאת שמע.
You can always move to Detroit 😉
A good fraction of people supporting permanent daylight time believe that this will create an extra hour of sunlight in winter. They will be so surprised when it’s dark at 8am. Then they will scream until we change it back.
Pretty much my thoughts when I saw that a very high-level government official supports the idea.
True story.
name?
I couldn’t get over the amateur border on the Florida proposal. talk about kindergarten…
I don’t know about others, but for me, there are plenty of times where my day starts well before it’s light and I find there’s a good feeling to that. But I’m never happy to bring on the dark in the evening, [let alone in the afternoon].
What about the Half an hour ahead permeately proposal?
1973 @ the oil embargo the clock was not moved back to winter time.
Kids went to school @ 8 AM pitch dark.
It didn’t work then & not gonna work out ever.
It’s not only the morning darkness issue, eby… there’s also a morning freezing cold issue during winter, as we discovered in 1973, which rendered a lesson learned. Only a fool would revisit an act that faiked, and expect a different outcome, imo.
It’s not only the morning darkness issue, eby… there’s also a morning freezing cold issue during winter, as we discovered in 1973, which rendered a lesson learned. Only a fool would revisit an act that failed, and expect a different outcome, imo.
There was an idea to have eastern time in permanent standard, central in permanent dst, mountain in permanent standard and pacific in permanent dst. The cool effect would be that there would only be 2 time zones and the east and west coast will only be 1 hour apart.
For the dansdeals readers, there would be no jetlag when flying from NY>LA
why can’t we meeet in the middle and permanently switch the clock half an hour over for daylight saving.
@Dan we need 1 more option (I guess 2 jews – 3 opinions are the right saying 🙂
– Either Daylight Saving Time or Standard Time, but as long as it does not change yearly.
One of the poll options should be- keep changing the clocks twice a year, but have the 2 parts of the year actually be equal to each other!! I.e., 6 months each for Daylight and Standard, like it is in much of the world and like it used to be here as well. None of this 8-months of DST. Switch in April and October like it used to be.
The poll options are for the primary 3 options that states are discussing right now.
In Yeshiva we changed the clocks for DST/EST on Friday at 12pm. There was no problem acclimating over Shabbos.
How about keep moving the clock forward 1 hour every 6 months.
Many countries seem to be doing just fine without changing clocks back and forth.
DST all year. I simply like the longer sunlight in the evening.
yep
China manages with just one time zone. Our States would be more United if we cut it back to two. Think of how Election Night would be improved!. Western Standard Time and Eastern Standard Time is all we really need.
It will happen when global warming happens.
Once the coasts flood, the US won’t be so wide and there won’t be a need for as many time zones.
Maybe klal Yisroel will adopt “camp time” running on their own schedule.
I heard AOC and company say it must be dem Jews with the benjamins controlling the country’s time policies. Either that or Bibi is hypnotizing amd whispering into the ear of the head clockmaker.
we could all live in israel as i do and fridays are not a problem at all. noone works. the much higher pcntg of religious jews here work out davening w/o a problem in winter
Charedim don’t work at all there, so of course there’s no problem.
Got in a little hate in the morning before you start work. Nice!
So ur saying chareidim are the only ones who daven and worry about shabbos? Be nice. Hating is so bad (+ u didn’t really make sense)
Um have you heard of עבודת השם?
How about we just change the zman tefila back an hour, start shabbos later, and move the zman for milchigs after fleishigs an hour earlier? There. Problem solved.
Or we can simply change the time the sun rises and leave the clocks alone.
Keep it simple and have Standard Time year round. And also start using metric system, it’s long overdue.
IN THE WINTER HAVE A 22 HOUR DAY, AND IN THE SUMMER HAVE A 26 HOUR DAY! Then, it with be pitch black, it’ll just be an illusion
This probably has nothing to do with this debate but we should only have two time zones, the western us and eastern us and that’s it. Time zone lag is horrible and everyone knows that California has the worst time zone.
Your wrong about fast days as they would start later I. Winter giving opportunity to eat before to many who usually are sleeping
It’s not hard to wake up before the fast starts in the winter as it is.
There is a 4th, better option here. I came up with a concept I am calling#HarrisTime. Basically, it is a 30 minute compromise in the middle of standard and daylight savings time. (India is GMT +5:30). That way you get the best of both worlds, with some additional sunlight but the 30 minute compromise also prevents the very dark mornings and late sunrise.
As it is, misheyakir/sunrise in winter is somewhat of an issue in some places. Making it 30 min. later , while not as bad as a full hour, would still cause issues for those needing early mornings.
AGREE!!!!
If we’d keep DST all year in New York it’ll be a killer for 6 am minyaners like myself
This. 6:30 Misheyakir is already a pain!
This whole time zone thing (and calculating time zone differences) confuses me as it is the way things are now. Wouldn’t it get a whole lot more confusing if the same US time zone would have some states observing standard time and others observing DST?
That’s just for me needing to call people / businesses in other time zones. What about truckers who cross state lines all the time? Airlines? And a whole host of other businesses who already have to factor time zones into their business processes. Sounds like a major flustercuck…
I prefer a hybrid system. I would like to change the clocks twice a year, but have the spring forward change happen at 2 PM rather than 2 AM. It would make for a confusing Sunday, but nobody loses the hour of sleep and the health problems that come from the 2 AM change in the spring.
Just keep it the way it is. Id everyone acts responsibly to go to sleep an hour earlier when they change the clocks back, they’ll be fine.
I like eliminating DST altogether, but Zman Krias Shema would be an issue.
If we still had to do changes, I would prefer DST from June-August only for the kids.
That’s it.
Are there more sales in the light or dark?
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/keep-day-light-saving-time-forever-so-it-doesnt-get-dark-5pm
After a GREAT nights sleep, I think this changing the clock thing is great! Can we add in an option to change the clock back an hour EVERY night? I think that would be in everyone’s best interests.
While most of the point in this article are solid, one really doesn’t make much sense. Getting beyond if crime does indeed happen more after nightfall, there still would be the same amount of dark hours in the day; only it would have a different hour labeled to it. There is no logical sense nor statistic to back up the claim that crime would drop along with permanent daylight savings.
Incorrect.
https://www.businessinsider.com/robbery-rates-drop-daylight-saving-time-2015-11
https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/blog/does-daylight-savings-affect-crime-rates/
DST year round gets my vote.
If school is a problem why not move the school times instead?
I already adjusted 7 clocks and have 3 more to do, I’m exhausted!
My clocks are pretty resilient despite all the setbacks they always spring back. 😉
Aside, from the religious debate which is impossible to make everyone happy. A solid majority of the population hates when it gets dark early. I’ve never met anyone who is excited for darkness it at 4pm. There are people who get depression in the winter over the lack of sunlight. So, unless you happen to live in an extreme western part of a timezone (i.e. Detroit, Cleveland, Phoenix) I don’t see the rationale in supporting the time change in the winter. Of course, this begs the question why those cities are even in their respective time zones. It is probably an easier to fix to place them in the right time zone than mess with the clocks.
Time to bump up this post for this motzei shabbos. Maybe it’ll help take everyones minds of the virus for a bit..
A half hour compromise!!
I like going out motzei Shabbat (I’m in Florida). Once we switch to DST that just doesn’t happen. I don’t mind switching. I certainly don’t want year round DST
School shouldn’t be starting at 8am. Should be starting closer to 9am.
How about we move the clock every week based on how many minutes later Shabbos would arrive, therefore SHABBOS will always be the same time, and about Shachris, If you wake up late enough it’s not a problem anymore!
It hasn’t been an issue for generations. I don’t understand why the push to change something that’s not a big deal. DST is fantastic, if anything go to year round DST.
Dan’s Deal’s is voting on whether to keep the status quo or to change the way the clocks are done. At the current situation, the status quo is neck in neck to permanent standard time.
Change The Clocks Twice A Year #StatusQuo (36%, 883 Votes)
Permanent Standard Time #FallBack (35%, 851 Votes)
At this stage everone’s vote counts! Please vote for status quo and save the day! It’s up to every individual to make a difference!
PLEASE EMAIL THIS TO 10 FRIENDS OR FAMILY MEMBERS!
Right now I just get to the Symphony on time on Motze Shabbos. I would miss out of one of my greatest pleasures in life
Cleveland and Detroit really ought to be on central time. But I’m fine with the current scheme in place.
https://nypost.com/2020/10/30/daylight-savings-2020-experts-call-for-end-due-to-covid-19/
I think nobody likes to wake up when it’s dark. Start school and/or work an hour later and end an hour later in the winter and you solved your school issue. Late shabbos dinner doesn’t bother me but early Fridays shorten the workday like crazy and make Friday the most inefficient day of the week. Long motzei shabbos is no good either as its boring with nothing to do. I’d rather have long shabboses and more light. Go figure Agudah is always lobbying for idiotic things.
” Go figure Agudah is always lobbying for idiotic things.”
Um, I’m not aware of a heter to say loshon hora on a blog (or rechiylis).
(I apologize if I sound like I’m being better then thou; thats not my intention. I’m assuming that your comment wasn’t intended on sounding as nasty as it across either.)
All the best!!
Why is the clock change dreaded? Because they had to mess with it. Not so many people complain in the fall when they get the “extra hour of sleep”. Most people have a problem with the change to DST in the Spring. In the 1980’s and before, the clock changed to DST on the last Sunday of April as opposed to now, when they change it on the second Sunday in March. If we stayed on Standard time until late April, the Sun is rising so early that I remember waking up an hour earlier than normal naturally. Back then, they would change the clock when our internal clocks were already used to it. With the change in March – we’re back waking up in the dark, and our bodies aren’t able to adjust.
For all those who always complain about school kids waiting in dark.
Schools can adjust time. (rather than entire society)
In USA, schools start too soon unnecessarily any way.
A. In Europe schools generally start earlier than in the US.
B. Children are not born and raised in a vacuum. Until the children are in school the parents cannot leave to work.
Change to halachic hours. Sunrise at 6am, shkiah at 6pm forever.
um…. sorry to say but the halachic hours change with the seasons.
Not so clear cut. Depends for what and according to who. In any case, what does sunrise and sunset at 6 have to do with the debate of DST, anyways.
Why do we have four time zones? China gets by with only one. It would help unify the country if we reduced ours to two (not counting Alaska and Hawaii) — East (present Eastern and Central) and West (present Mountain and Pacific).
china? the place where the west of the country has to get up at 2 in the morning to confirm with Beijing time?
OMG, eastern time is so DIFFERENT. Cancel it. DST is now standard!
I really detest DST. Always have. So I would think to go back to Standard Time year ’round. Don’t agree? Ok, how about changing the Fall back clocks before Yom Kippur (really Tisha B’Av, but nobody would go for that), and change the Spring clocks after Pesach (I don’t need to fall asleep before the Afikomen.)
Now this is sort of what they do in Israel. All right, so we won’t mention the holidays…just fall back in the middle of September, and spring forward at the END of April! (Oy, what hath Bush wrought?)
I think Trump would have done this by his 7th year in office. Ok, maybe not.
“Soon we will have to comply with the senseless twice a year “time change”.”
Don’t we already do that? What is he referring to? Please enlighten me.
I don’t know why we are even having this debate. For those of us old enough to remember, we tried Year round DST already https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#1973%E2%80%931975:_Year-round_experiment
I was in first grade. In the winter, in the NE, the sun was rising at 8:20AM. Many public School children are in school by 8am – that means they’re waiting for the bus at 7:30 in complete darkness. Parents were uneasy. After 3 days of that, the public schools decided that they’d shift their schedules to be an hour later until DST would normally start. That means parents that work, had to also shift their schedules by an hour – so with all this – what do we actually gain by having year-round DST?
Thanks for sharing. This is what we need to hear.
Exactly.
Standard time is based on the sun. The way it should be. If everyone wants to start things an hour early in the summer then do it but dont pretend noon is 1pm
As a programmer, this will make my life so much harder in the short term and so much easier in the long term.
Standard Time + 30 minutes
Day Light Savings Time – 30 minutes
I would vote to complain about whatever is instituted.
I would prefer standard time all year round. The year I was in kindergarten I the early 70s, they we stayed on DST all year and I remember waiting for the school bus in the dark.
That said if it was a choice between DST and changing 2x a year, I’ll take whatever option is not to change the clock back and forth.
I realized I commented on this back in 2019, but the world has changed so much in the ensuing 3 years. Yes, permanent Standard time poses a lot of problems and changes for davening shacharis with a minyan, but I wonder if it matters less now that more people are working remotely? If you have no commute and/or flexibility in your hours, davening 30-40 minutes later doesn’t matter as much.
It may matter less to those who have the luxury of working from home and/or setting their own hours. But there are those of us who have been going to work every day since this started, putting ourselves at risk (and then being forced to take experimental drugs to avoid being fired), who are still required to be in work in the morning. So unless you have a lead on a hospital or surgicenter that starts their cases at 9:00, I’m sticking with the status quo for my vote (as if it counts).
30 min ahead of Standard Time. Let’s compromise.
I say compromise, move all the clocks 30minutes between daylight savings and standard time. so for example:
In NYC, sunrise on January 5 would go from 7:20AM to 7:50AM,
In NYC the earliest time for sunset in December would go from 4:28PM to 4:58PM,
In NYC the latest time for sunset in June would go from 8:31PM to 8:01PM,
that’s what i think makes the most sense for the most people
Will we still have to wear our masks?
lol!!! think standard time all year makes more sense
I think that school and work should start an hour later when it gets light too late.
Against it. Without DST netz will be well after 8 and it will be a nightmare for people who need to daven before work. Cleaveland will really feel the effects as netz would be after 9.
… and if Cleveland is bad, think about Detroit. I wonder if states will move time zones because of this. IIRC, there was talk of New England states – CT, MA, RI, ME, NH, VT moving to the ‘Atlantic’ time zone. As much as people on the border between eastern and central time deal with this, can you imagine CT being an hour ahead of NY?
Many more Shachris minyonim in downtown meto areas in the winter …
Michigan should just join central time
Compromise…eastern standard time with a one time addition of 30 minutes so it will ALWAYS be 1/2 hour more than EST and 1/2 hour LESS than DST would have been …resulting in benefits in both ends
I think that’s a good solution. I like that or letting each state choose DST or not but then no switching. I could see how a far west in a time zone state may not want to switch.
I don’t know why everyone loves DST so much. I vote for just staying on standard time all year. So the sun would set at 7:09 pm instead of 8:09 pm (in LA). Who cares? The only practical application would be sof zman krias shma being at 8:19 am instead of 9:19 am, but that wouldn’t be a problem most days of the week (just shabbos and only those who don’t daven hashkama).
The whole reason DST was adopted in the first place doesn’t apply in 2022 anyway, so we may as well just go back to no DST. I hope that if this passes, many states will just change their time zones permanently. Hawaii doesn’t have DST, so Alaska would go to Hawaii Standard time, the west could would go to Alaska Standard time, Mountain time would go to pacific (lucky AZ, they’re staying out of this whole mess), etc.
Hope it doesn’t pass.
Is there an option to go back to the OCT/APR dates for changing the clocks rather than the very long DST season we have now?
I think that even if they change it to year round DST companies and schools might recognize that it doesn’t work for ppl and they might start the days later and end later essentially same times as before just it will be an hour later. For example if you’d start work at 8 now in a couple of years work might start at 9 and same with school
Exactly. It’s all a matter of how you think.
great so now we get to come home an hour later?
Nightmare. I thought extending DST was bad enough. Purim! PESACH!!! YOM KIPPUR!!!!! And day schools and yeshivas will have no choice but to start school later, because how will traveling rebbes daven? Even not travelling rebbes! On the plus side, if schools do open later, then this will be better for the kids who will get more sleep in the morning.
the way now makes more sense over all its much more balanced.
I live in Portland, OR. Permanent DST would mean 7:45 AM time for Tallis in December. Oy!
So have schools adjust their starting times to stop waiting in the dark. Another choice is splitting the difference and having a fixed time zone at 30 minutes instead of 60 minutes
You wrote a feeling shared by many people:
“As a parent, I despise changing the clocks. When we “fall backward” the kids wake up an hour earlier and when we “spring forward” the kids won’t fall asleep on time and have trouble waking up on time for the bus to school.”
The reason I find that thinking interesting is the clock change actually has a similar effect as traveling across time zones. There, too, we and our families have to adapt overnight to a new time, with it affecting our kids and our own sleep patterns and requiring us to lose or gain an hour or three of sleep or of wake time. Nevertheless, I can’t recall seeing anyone complain and saying they won’t fly with kids across time zones in order to avoid the problems you describe. To me, the lost or gained hour is a very minor price to pay (as it is when one flies cross country to Disneyland, for example) for the benefit the time change brings, ie. normal sunrise times in the winter in NY and late summer evenings in the summer.
Just go to Chalakim; problem solved
Yes. Being able to always be online until 530 on Friday is huge for anyone who works and keeps Shabbos. All the other downsides are really but this one trumps them all.
It makes no difference. Instead of changing the time it’s possible to change the hour of starting work/school (e.g., instead of starting at 9am start at 10am).
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Split the difference. Let’s fall back half an hour in November and stop changing the clocks after that.
This experiment was already tried in 1974 under Nixon during the oil embargo. I was in first grade. Would you send your 6 year old two blocks away to wait for a school bus alone in the dark, even in a very safe neighborhood? No – and neither would 1974 parents. I remember parents coming with their kids to the bus stop. What happened? Parents complained. What did the schools do? They decided to start an hour later until Spring time when Sunrise was early enough so kids didn’t have to wait at the bus stop in the dark. No doubt, businesses would’ve followed, if they had enough time to look at data / customer needs. If we end up doing that, what’s the point? In 1975, there was so much pressure to resume the clock change, that Standard time and the clock change routine was resumed.
This depends on which city you live in. To be fair, it is well known that Cleveland and Detroit are in the wrong time zones. There is no reason for them to be in Eastern time zone. Personally, I think summer time (Daylight Savings time) year round is best because it maximized daylight hour for the vast majority of the population. They can always start school a half hour later and many people don’t even commute to work anymore.
As for the davening times for Shachrit, I would argue the same. A good number of people makpid on minyan work for frum Jews or for themselves or from home. It would be an issue for some people but then again you live in America not Israel so that’s another tradeoff of living in the Galus. The US government isn’t nor should it legislate time changes based on the most convenient zman for schachris which maybe impacts 0.000001% of its citizenry. If it’s a huge issue you can make Aliyah where they argue about changing the clock every year and its impact on Sefardi selichot.